What to do with the Latent Shifter concept has a potentially simple solution, but I would like some input from you.
The Latent Shifter is someone who has strong enough Dragon's Blood to be a potential shifter. The Latent cards really should wind up giving a character the same stats as one that starts as a shifter. If this blood is already strong enough to become a shifter, then they should be drainable, maybe not as good as a real meal for a necro, but maybe an appetizer?
So, how about a single card that is attached to a shifter character, rather like a Flaw?
Any thoughts?
I like it! Makes for all sorts of fascinating possibilities... ;-)
ReplyDeleteBut you may want to officially exclude the Orcs either on the card or in the set PDF just in case there are any rules-lawyers with Orcs as clients out there. Best not to tempt us...er...them... ;-)
A Rules-Lawyer's Anonymous member
No space left on the card. It will have to be in PDF.
ReplyDeleteAnother issue for the PDF would be if there is any convention as to when the first shift for this character takes place. I never liked that old 50 cp rule myself and like the freedom to be a shifter early. But how early is the question. Mihailis first shifted in a demo game, but my other PCs began in low cp games already shifters. Would these PCs be able to start as shifters or need to encounter a Warpstorm or some other trigger? Okay with either, just wondering.
ReplyDeleteI don't see what was wrong with the latent shifter card that's already out. It adds stats, which you mention but failed to put on this card, and still gives the potential to shift. And why would they be drainable? They aren't shifters. Some latents may never shift. We already had that huge argument when the original came out and the final ruling was that they are NOT shifters and as such do not drain and do not detect.
ReplyDeleteSo, basically, this card now takes the place of the old denial flaw? And to those of us that don't follow anyone else's thought patterns, what does "draining CP of the character is quartered" mean? This seems to mix the old denial flaw as well as the old latent shifter and I'm sure at all how to handle it. Am I the only one who finds it confusing?
ReplyDeleteElizabeth. With the second edition it gives us a great opportunity to question whether we did the right thing or not. 6 HP is fair for a Werewolf, but not for a Dragon.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure they should be drainable, but discussing it now is great. I am wondering if the blood is strong enough to potentially become a shifter, is there also enough to make it drainable, to some degree.
Check out the new GM cards. Latents are now detectable. A Necro needs to plan her meals, and find potential enemies.
Charles, We dropped the 50 CP rule, it is a role-playing question.
Pixiejorge. Different shifters already have different drain rates, Dragons are worth more than anyone else. And they may not end up drainable. Elizabeth has a good point there.
You are right, we will not need denial in the new cards.
Before the days of Latent shifter cards and non-shapeshifer character, that's actually how we did it. You'd use the Human Werewolf card but just couldn't take any werewolf cards. When you ended up in a DS and the GM decided your dragon's blood sparked, you were a shifter.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I have no problem with the way the current Latent shifter card works. I start a lot of characters off as non-shifters and then can later decide if they are going to shift or not. Will version 2 not have non-shifter characters or will they all just have the Latent shifter card?
Another thing discussed was the fairness of the stat bonus depending on what shapeshifter you chose...Last I checked the differences between the shifters were not fair and didn't try to be.
Dragons were overall better, the other shifters were next (with contuing arguments over which was better), then came the Orc, followed by humans, elves, and whatnot.
If you choose to do a Latent, you just have to accept the stats you get...just part of playing the game.
That said, either way does work. I'd just question the person who wants to do a non-shifter to start and then ends up in a storm and decideds it would be cool to be a horse.
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I wouldn't let Necro's drain Latents or Orcs.
1. Sentiment is running to no draining on Latents, so, OK.
ReplyDelete2. Non-Latent characters would be just the characters. That being said, a GM and player could agree to break the rule, switch the character to a shifter and away ya go.
3. Latent shifters would be those with the blood and extra stats of the blood. They would start with a Dragon, Werecat or whatever character and add the Latent card. As Pixiejorge pointed out, it would essentially be a form of Denial.
4. Orcs make better magic items (Bone of Orc) than drainables. Somewhere here I have a whole set of Necro magic items made of Orc Bones.
That all sounds good to me. Would Latent shifters still shift for the first time having come in contact with a DS? Or, would it be some sort of "I've accepted my blood and now I can shift" type thing?
ReplyDeleteDenial implys you've already shifted and are just repressing those memories or trying to convince yourself you are not a unicorn...I'd say at character creation a player who put Latent on them would have to decide if they've already shifted and are in denial or if they have not shifted at all and are awaiting a DS.
Cheers!
FirestarAROC4. We will have no exact rules about any of those issues. They are really aspects of the characterization and role-playing. How a character becomes a shifter can be different for every character.
ReplyDeleteDenial versus Latent is also more of a characterization question than a rules question. So, whatever works for the GM and Player.
Yay! Less rules for the Lawyers!
ReplyDeleteI thought the whole point of the latent shifter card was to customize characters, not some half-baked form of denial. Are you instead planning to publish every shifter race in every species, or will vermite gargoyles and foxwings unicorns just be impossible in version 2?
ReplyDeleteI did not initially see that this card as written is indeed more a form of denial, given that bit about removing it. What I thought we were getting was more freedom to customize characters. This thread seems to say we be heading in the opposite direction. I would flipflop and join Elizabeth if that is the case. May be better to make this part of a Latent Shifter set along the lines of the Latent Phoenix Shifter card. Unless I'm blocking one, that would make for 9 cards, wouldn't it?
ReplyDeleteIt would not be necessary to publish every shifter type in every race. For Latent Shifters, you only need the base race card and the LS card. Once you have decided to shift or are forced to, etc., then you replace the LS card with a Shifter Type card. It would be easier to produce one each of those rather than all of the possible combinations out there. I don't believe there was ever any intent to limit the possibilities. The LS card just says "remove this card and become a full shifter." It doesn't say become one of the already published shifter combinations.
ReplyDeleteThe problem here I see is that the old latent shifter card added stats that were not part of the base non shifter card such as warp and od defense. this new one does not do that so a latent base character then starts with the stats of someone not of "the blood", even tho the blood is there in a lesser amount. There is a part of me that just finds this card confusing.
ReplyDeleteds-junkie is on the right track. This is not a replacement for the old Latent Shifter, it is a new card.
ReplyDeleteWhat you have here is freedom to do it your way. Do you want to use it as Denial, go ahead. If you want to use it to be a potential shifter and you know it, go ahead. If you want to play that the character can become a shifter and is unaware of that, go ahead. Those are all role-playing questions, not rules questions. Open the old brain bucket and Embrace the Chaos. Enjoy your freedom, fight for the right to do create your own fantasy character in a wildly chaotic world where everything is new.
This card, like most second edition cards, does not replace the v1 cards. Since 99% of v1 cards play in v2, you still have all of the v1 options plus the v2 options.
As far as having ten possible characters for Gargoyles, one for each race, why not? We opened this option by promoting Proxy cards. We can publish all of them as PDF's on the web and you use the ones you want. We actually plan on PDF publishing all of the potential characters. We also publish blank cards, so if you want something different, make it. You just need the GM's approval to use them. If a GM does not want to deal with your cards, have another character ready to play. It is easy, just do it.
If you want a character who does not have Dragon's Blood, will not shift, and will not be detected, use one of the V1 race character cards. (Yes, there will be V2 versions, but they will be virtually identical to the V1 cards.) They will never have the power of a shape shifter, but with the new Health cards, racial cards and magics they will acquit themselves well. They will be a good change of pace, fun and yours.
One of our games has a converted Madspawn character, sure, he can't attack a Necro, and a necro may realize she can give him orders, but it is fun. All characters have problems, Groog has lots more. We have an Orc in denial. He believes in his inner elf and takes no Orc cards. He is an Archer and Philosopher. Embrace the Chaos.